Comments

Randy Roy wrote on Jul 10, 2009 10:57 AM:

" Shaesca, your observations are no good. I, for one, found the history of the Apache enlightening. I bet most people on the res don't even know all the info. that the Historian gave. Why are you so negative? Do yourself a favor and seek professional help. "




charlie wrote on Jul 10, 2009 9:08 AM:

" the Apache wars ended in world war 2 in Sonora Mexico, the Mexico government saw allow the Mexican people to attack and kill and Southern Chiricahua Apache still alive, the Mexican people were not charge for murder of the Southern Chiricahua Apache people, my ancestors came from Sonora Mexico, the Southern Chiricahua Apaches I am a member of the San Carlos Apache Nation. "




johnb wrote on Jul 9, 2009 12:21 PM:

" It's so sad to see such bitterness and hatred in the posts that I have read. My take? Why spend valuable dollars moving a school, when one is already in operation. Also, should the tribe want to build their own school, aren't they alienating themselves from the outside world? The mix of culture is so important in today's world. We are the world, we are the people. As Michael Jackson stated, let's make this world a better place, just you and me. One individual can make a difference and bad apples are not needed. "




Shaesca wrote on Jul 8, 2009 6:15 PM:

" To Rational Thought...If you didn't know the history of the white man and Apache I guess you would have enjoyed the cut and paste. I do, and have known it for a long time. It wasn't an opinion..it was an observation. Also, it is none of my business what you or anyone else thinks of me. It is your problem, not mine. "




Rational Thought wrote on Jul 8, 2009 3:34 PM:

" To Shaesca, why do you feel the need to insult someone who was merely educating the masses? What is your problem lady? You are a mean-spirited and very opinionated person. And when someone points out facts that don't jive with your opinion, you lash out at them. I think you could use some psychological counseling. That's my opinion. "




Stop Payments wrote on Jul 8, 2009 2:56 PM:

" As long as the Federal government patronizes the Indians with payments, nothing will change on the reservations.

Where is the incentive to change? As long as the stipends continue, nothing will change. "




Shaesca wrote on Jul 8, 2009 5:41 AM:

" To Historian...Informative cut and paste job. My seven year old does it a lot. "




frustrated too wrote on Jul 7, 2009 3:41 PM:

" I think that the main problem is that we still have reservations. They were started as a type of prison camp, now we are throwing billions of dollars every year at them. Many people fear to cross them at night because of the uncontrolled youth. I say either do away with the reservation and let us be one nation under god, or put a fence up and make it a seperate country. They have their own laws that supercede ours. Lets get to the real issue and make it final. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:34 PM:

" Geronimo was born in what is now the state of New Mexico and according to the maps of the time was part of Mexico, but which his family considered Bedonkohe Apache land. Geronimo himself was a Chiricahua Apache. He grew up to be a respected medicine man and an accomplished warrior who fought frequently with Mexican troops. Mexican bandits massacred some of his relatives in 1858, and as a result he hated all Mexicans for the rest of his life. His Mexican adversaries gave him the nickname of "Geronimo", the Spanish version of the name "Jerome". "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:34 PM:

" Most of the tribes were subdued by 1868, except for the Chiricahua, who continued their attacks until 1872, when their chief, Cochise, signed a treaty with the U.S. government and moved with his band to an Apache reservation in Arizona. The last band of Apache raiders, led by the medicine man Geronimo, was hunted down in 1886 and was confined in Florida, Alabama, and finally Oklahoma Territory. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:32 PM:

" When New Mexico became a Spanish colony in 1598, hostilities increased between Spaniards and Apaches. An influx of Comanche into traditional Apache territory in the early 1700s forced the Lipan and other Apaches to move south of their main food source, the buffalo. These displaced Apaches began raiding for food.

Apache raids on settlers accompanied the American westward movement and the United States acquisition of New Mexico in 1848. The Native Americans and the United States military authorities engaged in fierce wars until all Apache tribes were eventually placed on reservations. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:31 PM:

" The Apache people (including the Navajo) came from the Far North to settle the Plains and Southwest around A.D. 850. They settled in three desert regions, the Great Basin, the Sonoran, and the Chihuachuan.
They were always known as 'wild" Indians, and indeed their early warfare with all neighboring tribes as well as their recent persistent hostility toward our Government, which precipitated a "war of extermination," bear out the appropriateness of the designation.
The first intruders were the Spanish, who penetrated Apache territory in the late 1500s. The Spanish drive northward disrupted ancient Apache trade connections with neighboringtribes. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:28 PM:

" Early Apache inhabitants of the southwestern United States were a nomadic people; some groups roamed as far south as Mexico. They were primarily hunters of buffalo but they also practiced limited farming. For centuries they were fierce warriors, adept in desert survival, who carried out raids on those who encroached on their territory.

The primitive Apache was a true nomad, a wandering child of Nature, whose birthright was a craving for the warpath with courage and endurance probably exceeded by no other people and with cunning beyond reckoning. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:26 PM:

" By the way, I'm a 14-year-old white boy from Thatcher. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:25 PM:

" The Western Apache - Pinal Coyotero - are mostly of eastern Arizona which include the White Mountain, Cibuecue, San Carlos, and Northern and Southern Tonto bands. They are reputed by tradition to have been the first of the Apache to have penetrated below the Little Colorado among the Pueblo peoples, with whom they intermarried (Bourke in Jour. Am. Folklore, III, 112, 1890). They possessed the country from San Francisco mountains to the Gila until they were subdued by Gen. Crook in 1873. Since then they have peaceably tilled their land at San Carlos. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:24 PM:

" The word "Apache" comes from the Yuma word for "fighting-men". It also comes from a Zuni word meaning "enemy". The Zuni name for Navajo was called "Apachis de Nabaju" by the earliest Spaniards exploring New Mexico. They called themselves Inde, or Nide "the people".

The Apache Nation is composed of six regional groups
Jicarilla - Tinde, Mescalero - Faraon, Chiricahua, Lipan, Kiowa - Gataka and Western Apache - Pinal Coyotero. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:18 PM:

" The Apaches formerly ranged over southeastern Arizona and north-western Mexico. The chief divisions of the Apaches were the Arivaipa, Chiricahua, Coyotero, Faraone Gileno, Llanero, Mescalero, Mimbreno, Mogollon, Naisha, Tchikun and Tchishi. They were a powerful and warlike tribe, constantly at enmity with the whites. The final surrender of the tribe took place in 1886, when the Chiricahuas, the division involved, were deported to Florida and Alabama, where they underwent military imprisonment. The U.S. Army, in their various confrontations, found them to be fierce warriors and skillful strategists. The Apaches are now in reservations in Arizona, New Mexico and Oklahomaandelsewhere. "




Historian wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:16 PM:

" Apache is the collective name for several culturally related tribes of Native Americans, aboriginal inhabitants of North America, who speak a Southern Athabaskan language. The modern term excludes the related Navajo people.The origin of the name Apache is uncertain. It may derive from the Yavapai word epache, meaning "people". The origin has also been claimed to be the Zuni word apachu, meaning "enemy" (but this may have been the Zuni name for the Navajo people) or an unspecified Quechan word meaning "fighting-men". "




counselor wrote on Jul 6, 2009 5:13 PM:

" No one really knows the origin of the name Apache. I do know that it is not a word of the Ndee (this is what we call ourselves)
Some say it is the zuni word for enemy, others say it is a yavapai word for people and yet others say it is the
Quechan word meaning "fighting-men". Our creation story tells us where we come from and stories passed down from our elders keep our history alive. "




counselor wrote on Jul 6, 2009 5:02 PM:

" It is so sad to see this war of words. I attended Ft. Thomas and graduated from there. In school everyone from both communities told us to do good in school so we can be better leaders and come back and work for the tribe. As far as I can see that is part of what the problem is. Some did go on to graduate and come back and are now trying to improve life for future generations. Now they are being condemened for this? It's no longer about kids it's gotten personal. "




I wonder wrote on Jul 6, 2009 3:37 PM:

" I wonder how many "Apaches" realize that name was given to them by the Zuni and that it means "enemy" in the Zuni language. "




charlie wrote on Jul 6, 2009 2:55 PM:

" guest what makes Ft Thomas school running, federal money for the Apaches students who attention school, without it Ft Thomas school would either down size or close down for good, the federal government has away to help all native americans, the Gila Valley is Apache country forever. "




New Rule wrote on Jul 6, 2009 11:58 AM:

" In order for one to post on the website, they should be a parent of a child attending FTUSD. I know many teachers don't send their children to FTUSD and they still are oppose to a school in Bylas. If their child attends school in the Gila Valley, they should focus thier frustrations on their child's school. "




Be There wrote on Jul 6, 2009 9:33 AM:

" johnb are you kinding me. Reared good students at FTHS? Relaxed? You must have just woke up from a long sleep! I graduated from FTHS in the mid 1990's and went on to college. I can attest, FTHS prepared me poorly for college, but I finished with sheer determination. I had to start from English 90, but the following year, I scored high and started my English 101. FTHS doesn't care about the Apache students. They are all about power, control and politicts. Aren't educators suppose to work in the best interest of all students regardless of race? "




Just my Opinion wrote on Jul 6, 2009 9:11 AM:

" (continued from previous post) Also if people are going to complain about the bus drive to FT what about those special needs students that have to commute all the way to Pima because FT doesn’t have a special needs education program? If the school moves to Bylas will it include a special needs program for those that are being shipped to Pima? Also they should be asking those Bylas parents who choose to send their child elsewhere for school (Bylas/Peridot Mission School, SC, or valley area schools) why they choose those schools and not Fort Thomas. "




Just my Opinion wrote on Jul 6, 2009 9:03 AM:

" (continued from previous post) Also if anyone should decide where the school should be, they should survey they parents who actually still have a child in school not those that do not have any in school. Instead of arguing about the location people should be discussing the curriculum being taught. I mean I did not start school at FT until I was in 6th grade and let me tell you that what they were teaching me then was what I had learned in 2nd or 3rd grade at my previous school. It’s a wonder academic scores are not good. "




Just my opinion wrote on Jul 6, 2009 9:01 AM:

" I read Mr. Upshaw’s article and do not like it one bit. I mean I am from Bylas and I can tell you that I am against moving the school to Bylas. Also did Mr. Upshaw get accurate facts when stating that they only hire natives for non-teaching positions? I mean did he actually look at how many native teachers actually applied for teaching positions and did not get hired? Maybe those native teachers just didn’t want to work for the FTUSD. "




johnb wrote on Jul 6, 2009 8:36 AM:

" Give it up Bylas and relax! For many years the Fort Thomas School District has been successful in rearing your kids. They are fed well, they are taught well and they are given the attention that they need, that they dont get at home. Cleanliness and manners have been characteristics that were derived from Fort Thomas staff. Be proud that your children are treated so well. Teach your kids to respect the teachers. They have gotten out of hand. So sad to see. "




NDN wrote on Jul 6, 2009 8:31 AM:

" Do you really know why 80% of Apaches don't care? Just go back in history and study your own history. The new arrivals, the Europeans, and those religions that were forced to leave Europe due to persecution of non-believers, their invasion and capitailist government and their introduction of alcohol to all Native Americans is to blame. Period! These actions, however, will not defeat us. The goal of Congress in the early 1800's was to exterminate all Indians. Before pointing fingers, please study the history of the new arrivals. "




Thankful wrote on Jul 6, 2009 8:19 AM:

" To the Hawkins family of FT and the few hanger-ons. Thank you for showing your ignorance in print. We'll now have to show in print the Bylas community and our jr. high and high school students just how you despise the Apache people. To the good people of the Gila Valley (and Ft. Thomas), thank you for your support in our efforts to self sustain our own future. We are the new breed of young leaders supported by our Apache elders. "




Well wrote on Jul 6, 2009 8:05 AM:

" To I know 2...Your diatribe just proved every negative thing that has been said about the bigoted, backward people of the gila valley. You certainly do know how most people around here think about Bylas and the Apache...you are one of them. "




I know 2 wrote on Jul 5, 2009 9:33 PM:

" Continued...
The other 20% of them do care about their reservation, their future, their heritage, their way of life, and most importantly their progression. That is not enough percentage to carry a race of people through to a positive future. It's so sad that the other 80% are so worthless because they don't give a crap about anything positive. Bylas Center will work not because of hard work and dedication on the part of it's employees but because when it begins to fail the Federal Govt will just hand them more money and more money. "




I know 2 wrote on Jul 5, 2009 9:24 PM:

" I happen to know about the subject of why no Apache Student Graduate ever goes back to Ft Thomas to be a Teacher or Administrator. It's because they are self destructive people. 80% DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR CULTURE, OR THEIR FUTURE. They want jobs but they don't want to work. They don't take care of what they have. They are allowed to get jobs off the rez but it takes a vote on the tribal counsel for a white person to get a job on the rez. continue... "




The Truth wrote on Jul 4, 2009 8:03 AM:

" By reading the comments you can tell the underlying current that the Fort Thomas community doesn't care about the Apaches, they only care that the federal and state monies coming in for the Apaches continues to provide them zero property tax rates and keeps them and their children employed and they get to use nice facilities during non-school hours. Most of the non-Apache school administrator's children attend the Pima Schools so you can see their motivation is not necessarily tied to providing the best education for the Apaches but rather driven by employment & tax benefits and control. "




Rational Thought wrote on Jul 3, 2009 5:48 PM:

" Using federal money to run an existing school is different than using an enormous amount to build a new one when one is not needed due to the existance of Fort Thomas. These Indian kids have it made at Fort Thomas which is a very nice looking school with more opportunities than all the other schools in the area. The Indians simply blow it. I guess that's what happens when everything is given to them on a silver platter. Face it, graduating high school is the highlight of 95 percent of their lives. "




adding my two cents wrote on Jul 3, 2009 1:08 PM:

" I live on the rez and have also lived off of it. My children attend school off the rez. I only do this because I feel the San Carlos school district and some parents of kids who go to school there do not care about how their children are taught. If the Bylas community can show that they will care for and be responsible for these schools and the children that attend them, then they should go ahead and build these schools in their town. "




The Truth wrote on Jul 3, 2009 11:00 AM:

" Federal and state money is used to operate the Fort Thomas schools. Federal money intended for Apache students enable the non-Apaches living in the Fort Thomas area to send their children to the school free of charge and enables property owners to have zero property taxes. Compare the property taxes in Graham County & you will see that the Fort Thomas community pays the least due to the Apache students attending the schools. The Fort Thomas community doesn't want to lose control even though they are the very minority within the school district. "




Well... wrote on Jul 3, 2009 9:32 AM:

" To Rational Thought...Why shouldn't they use federal money??? AND Ft. Thomas isn't a ghost town now? What, maybe 200 rednecks and 400 dogs live there? The only thing there that is substantial is the school....Oh yeah, let us not forget the church. Keep your nose out of your neighbors business. Drive an extra 12 miles? Wow, what a hardship that would be. "




Rational Thought wrote on Jul 3, 2009 7:08 AM:

" I know the board and the educators at Fort Thomas and Upshaw doesn't know what he's talking about. They supported the Bylas Learning Center and its alternative school the Mount Turnbull Academy. Its Fort Thomas' equivalent to Saffords Mount Graham High School. If the trive wants to use $6 milliion in casino money and build another school in Bylas, more power to them, just don't use any federal money. It would turn Fort Thomas into a ghost town, however, and all the teachers would have to drive 12 extra miles. Doesn't seem worth it to me. "




TJ wrote on Jul 2, 2009 11:58 PM:

" Here I am chuckling to myself as i read all the comments about what Mr. Upshaw wrote. This man is an instigator and he did a good number on you guys. He tends to do this to his own Tribal Chairman Mr. Nosie, he has nothing better to do! "




The Truth wrote on Jul 2, 2009 10:50 PM:

" The central theme of the No Child Left Behind Act passed by the USA is local control and that is what the Apaches want. The Apaches are the majority voters within the Fort Thomas School District and want the schools relocated to the Bylas community, than by all means let the Apaches control their own destiny. The Apaches know education is the key to self-sufficiency and that is where they wish to start. In the USA, majority rules and the Apaches are the majority within the school district. "




Willie wrote on Jul 2, 2009 2:31 PM:

" I've come from a small black commmunity back in the south. I recall that a town where i grew up was fighting for peace against segaration but more we fought for peace more violence came. I commend this fellow for fighting for self-governance not racism. When I left in SEARCH for peace I thought I found it here in Gila Valley. Well, hmmm. I'm thnking everytime I go shop in these local stores, restaurant (ex wal-mart- safeway, etc). Would I look funny because of the color of my skin? "




Well... wrote on Jul 2, 2009 11:23 AM:

" No offense taken "Filly." My yard is so tidy, it would probably make yours look like the Safford landfill, without the big tractor. I agree with you, but Safford, Thatcher and Pima have some really nasty trash they should clean up before pointing fingers at Bylas...That includes your snide remarks as well. Stop looking down your nose, look up, and see what is really going on around here. Oh yeah, might want to take off those horse blinder while you are at it. "




Filly wrote on Jul 2, 2009 7:17 AM:

" Sorry if I offended you. Must be your yard I'm talkin about. "




Well... wrote on Jul 1, 2009 11:23 AM:

" It is my opinion that "Filly" got her name wrong. She sounds more like a female canine type to me...I'm just sayin'....... "




Filly wrote on Jun 30, 2009 10:14 PM:

" I'm not an old timer here. And trash is exactly what I'm talking about. "




Well... wrote on Jun 30, 2009 4:38 PM:

" To johnb...You are right. The Apache are nice people to be around...the exact opposite of most residents of Safford, Thatcher and Pima. If someone has an opinion that differs from their point of view, they get more than a little crazy. The old time residents of this valley want power and control. When they feel they are losing that, they get real nasty. The old regime is slipping fast and they will do and say anything to hold on. Even blast and trash their neighbors. Tsk..tsk. "




johnb wrote on Jun 30, 2009 3:53 PM:

" The Apaches have never had issues with the Gila Valley people. Why is everyone up in arms. Just because someone voices their opinion. That is wrong. We are all cordial to each other and love one another. "




Well... wrote on Jun 28, 2009 11:45 AM:

" It is my opinion that you know-it-all posters should read Mr. Upshaw's letter again and pay particular attention to the last paragraph. He has a good point, makes his caring of his town and his people quite clear. Bylas is making progress and you can see it every time you drive through there. That is, unless you drive with your eyes closed. Every culture has the right to progress...I say keep your nose out of others business and worry about your own messed up culture, clan or cult you may be a part of. "




Pass the Peace Pipe wrote on Jun 28, 2009 7:20 AM:

" Even the animals migrated there from somewhere else. To the victor goes the spoils. Face it, your ancestrial tribal peoples were conquered by the ancestrial Americans. If the Germans and Japanese had won WWII, we'd all be speaking their language and under their rule. As the Apache were known as a warring people who robbed others of resources and land, how do you not understand this simple principle? By the way, Geronimo hated his San Carlos prison and the local Apaches there felt the same way about him. Why do you think they volunteered to track him? "




Send Everyone Back wrote on Jun 28, 2009 12:23 AM:

" Send everyone back and leave it to the animals. Everyone came here from someplace else-including the Indians!

The Indians have no claims on this land. "




Apaches wrote on Jun 27, 2009 2:25 PM:

" dont forget to send the white people back to europe the USA is to hard for them to live in, they dont even speak their language or even know their culture the white europeans who live in the USA "




Nativepride wrote on Jun 27, 2009 2:09 PM:

" If you can't saying nothing nice then don't say nothing at all. =) "




hola wrote on Jun 26, 2009 11:05 PM:

" Ok if we give back the land then should we take all te black people back to africa. sounds like a good idea to me "




Filly wrote on Jun 25, 2009 8:34 PM:

" I say we let the Apaches have their own schools, stores, shopping centers, communities, hospitals and then put a 15 foot wall around it all so we don't have to see all the nasty, dirty trash when we drive by. That place is an embarassment to Arizona. Thought your land was sacred, yet you treat it like that? There's an answer to your unemployment worries hire your neighbor to clean your yard. Yuck! "




Let us all speak kind words to eachother wrote on Jun 24, 2009 10:38 AM:

" As an outsider to this community, moving here 6 years ago, I see this discussion has turned to a war of words. It started out with education and has turned in to a blood bath of words! Why not keep to the subject at hand? Do the Apache children NEED a kindergarten school on the rez or not? Bickering and blame will NOT get what is needed. If a school is needed then build it. If teachers are needed, find them and let them teach. Color, race, religion and past history have NOTHING to do with this! "




Homesick Bulldog wrote on Jun 23, 2009 12:21 PM:

" The way I see it, we need to decide what we’re debating, before we comment. Are we discussing “Separate and Sovereign” vs. completely dependant, are we talking about reparations, or are we talking about whose best suited to teach in Bylas? I can’t keep up. "




Homesick Bulldog wrote on Jun 23, 2009 12:20 PM:

" Even though a number of these comments have been laced with bigotry (both sides of the fence), several valid points or opinions have been raised. Truth be told, you’d be hard pressed to name a single country in the world whose borders weren’t formed by war. It’s just a fact, humans and conflict, go hand in hand. What ever the color, whatever the race, it’s always been part of us. "




the kids wrote on Jun 22, 2009 3:12 PM:

" i think its sad the kids that grow up on they live what they know. just like we do. they just dont have alot of out side infuences like we do. there is no room for racist people in this world. y does everyone have 2 fight "




charlie wrote on Jun 22, 2009 10:50 AM:

" the problems do need to be solve between the people from the Gila Valley and the Apache people, we dont have any problems with the people from Globe and Miami areas, they have a great working relationships with each other. "




Like I said ... wrote on Jun 22, 2009 8:51 AM:

" This commentary has now veered into a discussion of the San Carlos Apaches right to the land and a widely held belief on their part (and others) that it was taken from them by force and military victory. It illustrates the long simmering distrust, fear, and, frankly, hatred in the Gila Valley, which was my point in the first place. So, here's my question: Why don't the well meaning ecumenical leaders of all denominations get together in the Gila Valley and try to solve the problem? "




Too bad wrote on Jun 21, 2009 8:31 PM:

" Possession is 9/10's of the law. You cannot hold on to your land, then you lose it.

To the victor go the spoils! "




charlie wrote on Jun 21, 2009 4:07 PM:

" we dont steal the land this land was giving to the Apache people to live on, the President from Washington DC, he decided it who shouild live on it, not us Apaches, we dont steal the land, my ancestors where forced from Sonora, Mexico, to live on the San Carlos Apache rez, the Pueblo's were long going by then, close Pima. Thatcher and Safford, this was one time the Apache Rez. "




Liberals Everywhere wrote on Jun 20, 2009 5:14 PM:

" Next, you will want to return AZ, NM, and TX to Mexico!

What a crock! "




Dream On wrote on Jun 20, 2009 5:12 PM:

" You are right, the land should be returned to the Indians--the Pueblo Indians. The Apache stole it from them.

You are seriously delusional. No reparations are deserved. "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 20, 2009 12:04 PM:

" To LocalGal...So what IS your opinion on this topic? All you did was complain about those of us that do have an opinion. You are just griping and grumbling. Rub your two brain cells together...you might get a spark. "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 20, 2009 11:56 AM:

" All the land stolen from the Natives should be returned with apologies too enumerable to fathom. Then watch the White Man dance to a new tune. "




Not Originally wrote on Jun 19, 2009 9:36 PM:

" The land was settled by other tribes long before the Apache raided those tribes and took their land. Then, the White man took the Apache land that the Apaches took from other Indians.

This is the Apache way. "




charlie wrote on Jun 19, 2009 2:39 PM:

" To Well: don’t blame us Apaches for crossing the Bering Strait, blame the one true God, he God send my people from Asian, to the USA, he gave us the land to live on, and to protect it from outsiders, who did later steal from us “nnee the people” God gave us the ten commitments to follow, by word of mouth, we don’t have no books to bring along with us, our ancestors tell us about the great flood of the bible, they know this happen before the white man gave us the Holy Bible, this is Apache land. "




GERONIMO wrote on Jun 19, 2009 1:15 PM:

" IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE APACHES THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO SAFFORD, THATCHER, AND PIMA OR WORK-JUST GIVE US OUR LAND BACK AND WE WILL TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES-WE WANT MORENCI MINE, RAY MINE, MIAMI MINE, SUPERIOR MINE BACK AND AT LEAST ALL OF THE MONEY CAME FROM THESE MINES-FOR THIS REASON I DID NOT RUN IN PEACE "




LocalGal wrote on Jun 19, 2009 12:07 PM:

" While bickering over who is more open-minded and well educated some of you have gotten pretty far off topic. The letter was about Bylas, schools, school board members, teachers,...remember? "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 19, 2009 10:37 AM:

" To get a grip...I don't use those terms loosely. The sad truth is my statements come from observations and experiences encountered over the last eleven years. The truth always hurts and angers those who are most guilty. Ton O Bull and I are not the same person...just more open minded and educated than the average bred, born and raised Gila Valley citizen. Thanks for the "good luck" wish. Even though it was meant to be sarcastic and mean spirited, surely there is some good in you somewhere. "




Bella Swan wrote on Jun 19, 2009 8:52 AM:

" If the Apatche Wearwolves would do their duty and protect the people better no one would be afraid to go to school on the rez! "




Get a grip wrote on Jun 19, 2009 8:33 AM:

" I wonder how many of these blogs belong to the same people....Schaesca and Ton O' Bull seem curiously in sinc with one another, don't they. Schaesca: you can't use terms like "cult run" and "white bred place", without being a racist bigot yourself. And, good luck finding a place in the "real world' (as you call it) that doesn't display what you deem to be racism. People like you vehemently search for reasons to cry such fallacies! Good luck and good riddance to you! "




charlie wrote on Jun 19, 2009 6:37 AM:

" you want progress than close dont Thatcher and Safford and see what happens, you been living to long in the Gila Valley. "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 18, 2009 1:17 PM:

" To Ton O Bull...as I begin reading about the Wham Robbery I can't help but wonder if the ambush was really about the money in the ambulance...or was it to try to rid the area of the Black Buffalo Soldiers residing, and guarding the payroll. Just a thought. An hour and a half is a long time to drag out a robbery. I see a lot of the same names then that are still prevalent around today. Most curious..... "




What Now wrote on Jun 17, 2009 6:06 PM:

" Weak analogy.

Meaningless "




To The Attackers wrote on Jun 17, 2009 5:11 PM:

" Like a dog (or cat) - “When you chase your own tail – you always come to the same conclusion, and;


1.It generlly stinks.
2.What you see is what you get.
3.If you continue to hang onto it you only hurt yourself.
4.To everyone else it's obvious that you've been wasting time and seeming rediculous while doing it. "




to Attack The Messenger wrote on Jun 17, 2009 4:52 PM:

" You are an elitist liberal. "




What attacks wrote on Jun 17, 2009 4:38 PM:

" There have been no attacks.

You can criticize the "verbiage", but you have wasted your own words in a weak and unsubstantiated argument.

You are guilty of attacking the messenger. You must be a fanboy or fangirl. Join hands and sing "Kumbaya"!

ToB must need your help. "




Typical Liberal Diatribe wrote on Jun 17, 2009 4:32 PM:

" Typical liberal response to anyone who refutes the claim of racism. Anyone who does not agree with them they claim "denial". Unbelievable!

Where are your examples? You have no facts and no evidence. "




Attack The Messenger wrote on Jun 17, 2009 4:07 PM:

" Typical denial, and shallow thought with no reference to having read the material referenced. Sounds pretty elementary and seems as though you ("No Expert" and "Wasted Platitudes") have wasted your verbiage at a much lower level of communication. To rephrase an old adage, probably coined in the Gila Valley - "No, not in my back yard!" Again, denial, denial and denial. "That dog don't hunt" any more! "




No Expert wrote on Jun 17, 2009 3:00 PM:

" Prolific writing does not serve as evidence in qualifying ToB an expert.

Racism and discrimination is not prevalent in this community. One citation discussing an incident that occurred 120 years ago does not prove that it still exists in our community.

One or two current examples hardly qualify the existence in widespread racism. "




Wasted Platitudes wrote on Jun 17, 2009 2:56 PM:

" Merely writing excessive superfluous comments here does not qualify an individual in being an authority on anything.

It is all yadda, yadda, yadda, and blah, blah, blah.

No substance and no factual evidence in supporting the espoused opinions does not qualify the argument. "




Some Things Aint Funny wrote on Jun 17, 2009 12:59 PM:

" Hey, Finally - Seems like you're out gunned on this site. "Ton O Bull" has probably written more than you will ever read. How so? I know him. "




Finally wrote on Jun 16, 2009 10:46 PM:

" ToB, glad that you are finally done. You are very long winded.

A pseudo-intellectual who has obviously read at least this one book. Then you use it to support your discussion on any subject which is related to the book or not. "




To More wrote on Jun 16, 2009 5:49 PM:

" Actually, Ton O' Bull is spot on with his observations concerning the level of prejudice and racial and religious hatred in the Gila Valley. It is particularly pronounced in the courts throughout Graham County, but it is prevalent everywhere you look.

In addition he expresses his viewpoint in an articulate, thoughtful manner which stands out from the poorly worded (and thought out) blather which is too often the case with the bloggers on The Eastern Arizona Courier. "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 16, 2009 4:36 PM:

" To: "More" - And you sir (small s) are a typical example of what I speak - and with such I rest my case. "




More like a Lot o Bull wrote on Jun 16, 2009 4:29 PM:

" "Ton o Bull" is an appropriate "handle".

That is all you seem to be spreading here. "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 16, 2009 2:55 PM:

" To Unfortunate: Both have merit, and yes I agree, but I try not to allow myself the same displeasure as to fall in line with what already exists here in the Valley. That being said and as you and I have both observed, at times it seems difficult to remain aside from the fray. As such and In answer to "the pugilist" - because some reasonings run deep, no, we can't "all just get along" and that is extremely "unfortunate"! "




To Ton o Bull wrote on Jun 16, 2009 12:42 PM:

" No, you needn't assume that to be correct. But, turning to the merits, if I read your prior postings correctly (for example, your responses to Shaesca), you also perceive the level of discrimination, racial, and religious hatred which continues to be so prevalent in the Gila Valley. Or did I misread your postings? "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 16, 2009 11:17 AM:

" To: It's Unfortunate - The fact is, that having assumed your readers don't know the meaning of the word "palpable", you thereby describe the presence of "haughty elitist snobbery" as also being present in the Gila Valley. May we not also "assume" that to be correct? "




Its unfortunate ... wrote on Jun 16, 2009 9:27 AM:

" but the racism in Graham County is palpable (look it up). A few years ago, I needed a rope to tie some building materials to the top of my vehicle. I stopped at the then Texaco in Bylas to get something that would work. Told by the attendant that he had nothing, I asked if the Bylas Store might. The answer was "we don't speak to 'those people'". One small example of the blatant racism in the Gila Valley. "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 15, 2009 8:02 AM:

" To Shaesca - If you do leave the Valley, your opinions will be missed. However, you might take a look at Prescott Valley. It seems to be a great little town. I will read Krakhauer. As for me, all but few of my family are laid to rest here, and none are of whom we write. They were and are good and honorable people. It's the "I, Me and My's of this day who are the Primary Hypocrites in this valley. And they are they who will disappear from memory. None of those will leave any lasting legacy. "




apache1 wrote on Jun 13, 2009 2:03 PM:

" love thy neighor as thy self! "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 13, 2009 1:06 PM:

" To Ton O Bull....Thank you for your informed insight. You are completely right in you observations of this valley. I am anxious to read Larry Ball's book. Thanks for sharing the information. Another good book that explains a lot of today's attitudes in the Gila Valley is "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakhauer.

I hope you can remain hopeful for change if you continue to live here. Unfortunately, mine has dwindled and moving on is a must. Eleven years is quite enough. Good luck to you. "




To Shaesca wrote on Jun 12, 2009 10:53 PM:

" Shaesca, why are you still living here if it so horrible? This is a good community with many types of people with many different backgrounds. But when it comes down to it most are good people. I would suggest that a city would be more to your liking. New York or maybe somewhere in California. Let us know how it goes. "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 12, 2009 3:08 PM:

" As usual, it's apparent none who comment have read the book. Making accusations or assumptions about something you have't read is quite a bit "foot in mouth" disease, is it not? We still have, in this valley ancient attitudes that were still quite obvious and admitted then as well as denied now. Again, read the book, then compare with what you observe now. Some are still wearing "blinders" in the Valley and that's oblivion. Maybe things have changed for you, but roots go deep for others. "




Bull Still Stretching wrote on Jun 12, 2009 2:18 PM:

" Things are much different in the 21st century than in the 19th century.

History can be used as a guide, but does not necessarily reflect current values. Germany is no longer fascist controlled, blacks in America have full rights of citizenship, and women have equal status under the law to name but a few.

Using an event from 1889 to rationalize a discussion concerning current sociological practices is not a very well formed argument.

That event has nothing to do with Indians or this discussion. "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 12, 2009 1:47 PM:

" Crock - Not - It's true history and available at "your local library" and printed by The Arizona Historical Society, 2000, I just happen to own a first edition. It's also available from Barnes and Nobel, in hardback and paperback. Try it, you'll like it, unless of course your one of those who like to stir crocks to a boil. This is not one of those and it's documented - from all sides of the issues. Attitudes may change with education. Historical fact and not legends and customs tell the truth. If truth is not your aim, don't bother. "




Fabrication wrote on Jun 12, 2009 1:30 PM:

" Comparing racist tendencies in this area from 120 years ago is more than a stretch, it is inane. "




What a Crock wrote on Jun 12, 2009 1:18 PM:

" Ton O Bull, are you selling the book or what? "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 12, 2009 11:58 AM:

" No Racism? Read "Ambush At BL00DY Run - The Wham Paymaster Robbery of 1889 - A Story of Politics, Religion, Race and Banditry in Arizona Territory" by Larry D. Ball and you'll recognize what and why things in Southeast Arizona are the way they are today and especially the Gila Valley. My heritage goes back as far as anyones here now and all of my family have been touched by what went on then and is still going on. That particular book is only the tip of the of the tail of the "rattlesnakel" that still lives here today. "




Well wrote on Jun 11, 2009 8:34 PM:

" And I think Shaesca is a bigot who has no clue what is going on. She wouldn't know racism if it came up and bit her on the butt! "




Well wrote on Jun 11, 2009 8:33 PM:

" Abolish reservations and let those living on them choose if they want to live in a tepee and hunt game or if they want to join the rest of the world in the 21st Century or not. There are indigenous peoples living in South American rain forests who have no contact with the outside world and that is they're choice. People should leave them alone if they want to be left alone, just stop with the handouts already. Nobody alive was around when Americans took over the continent. So why all the complaining from the res? "




Well wrote on Jun 11, 2009 8:30 PM:

" Face it, the land belongs to whomever conquers the previous inhabitants. That is the way it is around the globe. That is why there is still so much fighting in Ireland between north and south, Protestant and Catholic. It's all a bunch of hooey. And don't cry for the American Indians unless you want to give every relative of a former slave 40 acres and a mule. Why do we still follow treaties from the 1800s? Don't you think something better could be worked up now. Abolish all reservations and let all men trulyl be free. "




Well wrote on Jun 11, 2009 8:27 PM:

" Don't play the who was there first game, because even the Apaches would lose. They stole that land from other tribes and even the name Apache is a derogatory term the other tribes called them. I suppose you could go all the way back to the first inhabitants that crossed the land bridge from Siberia or arrived in boats like the Polynesians but that doesn't make much sense either. Columbus never set foot on North America either, he landed at an island near South America and explored there. The Vikings were the first "white" people in North America. "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 11, 2009 6:59 PM:

" To CV Apache...I hate to be the one to tell you this, but racism NEVER, and I mean NEVER left Safford, Thatcher or Pima. Some whites even discriminate against other whites in this backward place. If you are smart you will take your step-daughter far away from this cult run, white bred place and let her see that the real world can be a better place than here. Without bigotry, racism, prejudice and discrimination. This is a sick place. "




Ton O Bull wrote on Jun 11, 2009 3:20 PM:

" To Tony Thatcher - Columbus didn't discover America anyway - he just arrived later than everyone else that was already here. And to everyone else, give it up, and let them have there schools and the jobs that go with them. The so called "pioneers" of the Gila Valley don't have a claim on other peoples education anymore than the gold from the Wham Payroll Robbery, even though they think they do. They rationalize now just as they have for the last 120 years. "




Check the Results wrote on Jun 11, 2009 2:50 PM:

" Compare the test scores for schools on the reservation in San Carlos to Fort Thomas.

The San Carlos Tribal Council has demonstrated that it cannot manage its' own affairs. What makes you think that they will be able to manage another school?

If students are expected to go on to college, then they need tt be properly prepared. There are nearly no colleges on the reservations. "




Reality in reservations wrote on Jun 11, 2009 12:24 PM:

" The only thing the people living on the reservation seem to be able to do is complain and cry racism all day long. I believe there is racism all right, in the form of reverse discrimination. I am white and I had to earn my scholarship to attend college, nobody gave it to me because of my ethnic background. This is preposterous! Why are there even reservations today? The government should stop subsidizing a welfare state on the res and make them make their own way in live like everybody else. I bet they'll just say "Your so racist." "




CV Apache wrote on Jun 11, 2009 10:25 AM:

" I am an Apache who lives on another reservation but regardless of what this reservation looks like or what stories you hear about how bad the rez life is Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Wow I have a stepdaughter who lives in Safford and is enrolled in a tribe and to know that she lives in a Town full of Racist People! I would of never thought she would have to know what racist means but with hateful peeps like all of you, your all bringing Hate back! "




Tony Thatcher wrote on Jun 11, 2009 9:42 AM:

" To many people forget who the intruders are on this land !
Maybe if Columbus's boat had sank, these inconsiderate comments would be nonexistent ???????????
Anyone who refutes this fact can kiss my white b_tt ! "




Baycus wrote on Jun 10, 2009 10:52 PM:

" For better or for worse, these changes will happen and probably in a short period of time. Little by little, the Whites will move out and the high school and the elementary school will be 100% Native-American. And I predict shortly that the name will even change to Bylas High School or a combo name like Bylas-Ft.Thomas. Sometimes people get what they wish for. Why don't these folk become more self-sufficient? Why don't they take more interest in their affairs? I'm afraid that train's already left the station! "




Some Things Aint Funny wrote on Jun 10, 2009 9:02 PM:

" True or False - If you teach on the reservation, you can't retire and come back as a "double dipper" by continuing as a sub or part time teacher, correct? Stop the double dipping and you may, just maybe, might allow others with a "fresher" and better attitude a hand at teaching their own. This is a sticky subject because of and/for a lot of ingrained and less progressive attitudes tHAT are now allowed to "settle" into luxuries they really never earned. And that with a little effort in recruiting may be filled by qualified "NATIVE AMERICANS." "




Think again wrote on Jun 9, 2009 5:24 PM:

" The teachers would actually get paid more by teaching on the reservation being Federal employees and they would have better job security.

Your claims in your letter are false.

As far as having more control, the Fort Thomas school board is already controlled by Apaches. How much more control do you think that you would have if it was in Bylas. The Federal government would then control the school. "




Shesca wrote on Jun 8, 2009 11:12 AM:

" To Live on the Res...You are right I have no idea what goes on there...I DO know that the government has held all Indians virtual prisoners for the last 300 years. You obviously only saw what you wanted to see while living there. I pass through Bylas and see much improvement there in the past 15 years. Why shouldn't Bylas have their own school? Because the White teacher may have to conform to the Apache way for a change. I don't think my thinking is "liberal," it is just common sense. "




Lived on the Res wrote on Jun 7, 2009 2:05 PM:

" Shaesca: I lived on the reservation and you do not have any idea what goes on there. Liberal ideology like yours is what relegates the Indian to living a life of welfare dependent on whatever scraps the Federal government decides to throw their way. The only way that things will change is by the Indians taking responsibility and involving themselves in educating their youth in a manner that will break the cycle. Moving the school to the Res will do achieve those results. This will reinforce the status quo. "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 7, 2009 8:37 AM:

" To don't try to speak...I think that is exactly what the Apache is trying to do. Perhaps you need to read Mr. Upshaw's letter again as well as the previous comments. If you don't see bigotry and racism in them you have some serious issues you need to address. My apology for the ignorance of people like you still stands. "




Dont try to speak for everyone here Shaesca wrote on Jun 6, 2009 5:38 PM:

" Shaesca-where are these "small minded" comments displaying bigotry? What are yo referring to? If anyone criticizes an Apache or Obama, they are automatically a bigot and small minded?

Get a life! The Apaches need a hand up and not a handout! They need to learn how to become self-sustaining and self governing to bed able to control their own destiny. As long as they depend on the US government, they will remain subservient. "




Shaesca wrote on Jun 6, 2009 11:13 AM:

" To Mr Upshaw and all Apache who read these comments....I humbly apologize for the bigotry and racism of my fellow white men. I am ashamed that I probably know a lot of the small minded people who made those small minded comments. Please do not judge all for the few ignorant who do not know any goodness in their own hearts, therefore cannot know others. I wish you well, and I wish you more than you deserve. "




I agree wrote on Jun 4, 2009 1:58 PM:

" I strongly agree that the San Carlos Apache Tribe needs to be self-governed and self-sufficient!

The United States government needs to STOP all payments to the Tribe immediately. They need to stand on their own without their monthly stipends.

As long as they continue to get paid, they will be beholding to the American taxpayer. "




non apache wrote on Jun 3, 2009 8:49 PM:

" This man is just plain ignorant. That seems the attitude of the people on the reservation. I agree with the previous post that says all that "owing" is old. The people on the reservation are a perfect example of why you shouldn't give people things they don't deserve. They take things for granted. It also doesn't serve them well in learing to be self sufficient. The indians are famous for needing sponsorships to fund their affairs. Guess they don't realize we already do. "




No more reservations wrote on Jun 3, 2009 5:11 PM:

" Of course no one wants to pay more taxes and lose job security, how is that being selfish?? And who, if not the Non Apache would teach your kids if as you say none of the Apache go on to college and return as teachers, no one, thats who!! And if you want progress so much, shut down the reservations and live like the rest of the world does. It's almost 2010 for crips sake.. "




NO Clue wrote on Jun 3, 2009 3:55 PM:

" How many kids graduate from San Carlos and then go to college later to return as teachers or a principal?

If they are smart enough to go to college, then they are smart enough to never return to the reservation.

Who will teach at this new Bylas school? Over 50% of the teachers at Fort Thomas will refuse to go to Bylas. It is not safe for them or their vehicles. "




Fantasy World wrote on Jun 3, 2009 3:51 PM:

" You must be living in a fantasy world if you think that your children would receive a better education in Bylas. The Apache children in San Carlos do not based on the testing results. Yes, you could argue that the tests are biased, however, these children need an education that will prepare them for life in regular society and not living on the reservation.

Most of the Bylas parents are not involved in their child's education and it would be no different if the school were in Bylas. Clean up your house before getting a new one. "




Apache way wrote on Jun 3, 2009 11:16 AM:

" Hey Reede, isn't the Bylas Learning Center and alternative school Mount Turnbull Academy part of the Fort Thomas School District? You sound uninformed. "




Good Luck wrote on Jun 3, 2009 9:17 AM:

" What a complete bunch of Bull. Maybe the reason Bylas doesn't have anyone that comes back to teach is because the few that are smart enough to get educated don't want the life on the Res. I for one am all for you all taking care of yourselves and that includes earning what you have. You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you and that would be the white man. "